Silly me, trying to argue with ex-northern coalition members.

Shields have never been dominant in anything but small scale hit and run tactics (except for Tengus which is a separate issue altogether). For the past 2+ years its been all amarr armor (or maels just to counter abaddons incredible buffer).
.

Except several of us are also discussing ships e.g. the SFI that lose about 30-40 DPS in their standard operating regime, where they don't have all that much DPS to begin with. The ship goes from being just barely viable as a kiter to being completely useless because its DPS and tank are too weak to brawl with and it can't kite because its DPS is easy to shrug off.

Grath,

Blaster-related do you consider this change to be necessary?

Also try to apply those nerfs to machariel.

Says pandemic legion who controls fozzie and whole game.

8km is alot.

Is there a current trend to nerf shield tanking into the ground when compared to armor tanking? For years shield tanking was almost obsolete and irrelevent with megas and apocs being the ships of choice for fleet combat.

We all see who's most active in this thread - pandemic legion.
This proves that PL is controlling the game as they please.

This is newest idea from PL - to nerf tracking falloff and optimal.

If you'de like to be schooled about TE mechanics and how this 33% nerf ruins above fits, just look me up ingame. I don't mind helping noobobs.

Oh wait, what's stopping these gate camping fleets from using more remote sebo's to compensate?

Maybe you want me to now run the math with links included?

, I was really just trying to get clarification on CCPs opinion of the shield/armor tanking choice atm - is it considered to be fair, is one over powered and is there an internal decision to pull one into line withthe other - especially since the uniquness between the two systems is starting to be blurred.

Lol, you're very passionate about this - do explain why exactly this change is needed. I'm a pirate, who flies pretty much all sub-Bs ships, I'll just enjoy my time in another hull/fit, but am very curious where this change comes from.

Finally, the 22km range used is an approximation - ofcourse you'll swing between 20-24km. Irrespective it's still a 15ish % nerf to applied dps. Why are you PL boys so bothered about the 22km number.

Use your 200 vs 250dps number, are you telling me that a 20% applied dps nerf isn't 'really that big a difference?' how much premium are people paying for 5-10% increases using faction/deadspace mods and implants?

Essentially the argument for the nerf is a fallacy. The notion that it is intended solely to re-balance minnie ships is a nonsense. That would be better achieved by either effecting their individual stats or the weapon they use. This does nerf blaster ships that use TE, any idiot can see that.

I think what you're missing is that the falloff boost NEEDS to be large for it to be worth it. If you're still sitting in web/neut range then what is the point?

.

So the range bonus is the target here. I would suggest that there be an alternative choice made available for pilots to use a low slot to increase range if the TE is to be mainly dedicated to tracking, and I can see the point of it being so as it's name alone suggests tracking is its primary function. A competing low slot module to increase range so that the ship set up can be more varied would be my idea of a balanced approach to this (while making the TE dedicated to tracking), because the TC provides the means to do both in the mids.


How do u react to that suggestion?

Do u want to give me some fitting advice if the change does happen :P

way to buff armor tanking over shield tanking even more.... it`s getting a lill excessive don`t you think?

wrong, on smaller ships the change will be considerably more noticeable.

This has merit, the need to blob to compensate for the "balances" being made seems to increase..

Loosing 3KM only ? Actually if its true, we loose about 33% or the range on each TE ? So what will be the range exemple for a zealot with scorch which is shooting now at 54km with falloff and with this nerf ?.

now i have heard ogb are incoming, but for now at least, 1 o/h boosted scram will scram out to 16km. one o/h boosted web will web out to 19km.
.

I thought the stabber fit linked about would be an interesting point of reference for the TE changes so I was just fiddling with it a little bit and the results are at the bottom. I think its likely that you will feel this effect (usually between a 5% and 15% Im guessing) at typical engagement ranges for kiting ships like the stabber or the talos - but it seems unlikely that the role of the ship will be compromised to an extent that they would be abandoned. More likely, there will just be some extra room for ships like armor harb or armor brutix to have a role.

The fundamental ability to engage large groups with small ones won't change at all. It may take slightly more time to wear down ships that you isolate, depending on relative ranges, and there may be slightly more flexibility for tackling frigs to be on grid for longer, but overall this change shouldn't shift the meta much.

[Stabber, kiter]
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II

Medium Shield Extender II
Medium Shield Extender II
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II

220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
5W Infectious Power System Malfunction
50W Infectious Power System Malfunction

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


BARRAGE 6.5% dps drop at 20k

3.51+37.2 with the old TE 187dps@20km

3.23+32 with new TE 175dps@20km

RF EMP - 18% dps drop at 20km

1.75+24.8 with old TE 170dps@20km

1.61+21.3 with new TE 140dps@20km

you're not getting it..

then you're making my point. unless you can explain how moving a ranged ship closer is a good idea?

ccp, please.
why do u help the big corps and fleets AGAIN?
the only way that small gangs can fight the blobs is sniper/kitter ships. now u will punish the small corps AGAIN with this TE nerf.
there must be soo much whining about the kiters.
there are lots of modules in the game which need rebalance, but not this one.
this change force ppl to use short range ships, so in pvp the one, who has more friends or more armor going to win. what a fun!

Minmatar falloff should be increased, and their speed decreased to below shorter range boats, so you get to do a mental calculation: Can I whittle away enough of this thing's hp before it catches up to win the dps race?

No no no - you don't get it, it's a very very very small adjustment that us plebs will hardly notice - its been said so 'honestly' by Mr. Panda leg , so it MUST be true, especially since all his acolytes are also repeating the same 'brilliant' math - its not about a ~15% nerf to applied dps of already sub-standard ships, noooooo it's about a very very very small adjustment in your range. PL says so, you're wrong, he's right ... Okie ?

See Mach and Cynabal - so stronk - nerf TEs!

*Sarcasm off*

Just pointing a flaw on your argument. Its called SCORCH. Scorch still is far superior on applying damage while kiting. But the metagame is not composed ONLY of the range or speed, or tank type, but the combination of all of those.

The same guy I replied to later endorsed a rage post against the RSB nerf complaining about how 'forgiving' the game is getting. Talk about sticking to your guns.

a 2 TE slicer for instance, at lvl 5 goes from 22+4.1 to 20+3.5. ask any slicer pilot, that's a big difference.

i don't know why it's hard for you to understand that sometimes a 2km change can make a bigger difference than a 5km change.

Best frigate kiters currently are Caldari missile spammers and they don't get affected by this at all... together with their spare slots for TD they even get improved by the TE nerv.

grath i am slowing starting to like you bro!

So tl;dr: kiting is an extremely engaging, tricky, and fun style of gameplay, while brawling is simplistic, deterministic, and frustrating. And your recommendation is that they nerf the fun thing so its not as viable of an option. Because more people should do the annoying, frustrating thing instead?

Ok...

in all sincerity, would you care to share some of those mails in your t1 point slicer, unboosted, where you're not blobbing people to death?

i'd be genuinely interested.

On a hurricane it's also about 22% lost dps at 20-25km. The affect of this nerf will be more and more people not flying tier 2 bc's in favor of t3 bc's, who will feel the effects of this nerf far less at kiting ranges. It's also worth asking people like Grath Telkin, who claims that 4km isn't a big deal about why do people:

a. not fit t1 tracking enhancers then, given that they have the same stats as the new proposed t2 te's
b. why do people spend isk on faction mods that only provide small dps changes, far less then 22%.
c. why do people train up skills that offer only 2% increases to falloff/optimal/tracking for 2 weeks at a time
d. how much did you spent on hardwirings and faction/officer mods on your titan, to increase the range/dps/tracking?

The answer is simple. The changes and benefits these provide are huge. They are not small, they are not irrelevant and a te nerf, like all of the above, will have a very serious impact on the way the game is played and the way that ships can be handled.

You have downs mate?
That's from 2012, not 2009.

. The future of solo PVP has never looked so grim.

The trick is not to die and even kill some. That's why I don't like the idea to nerf TE at all.

Ok, so we let you know what we think. Basically seems like 75% of people are not in favor of this unnecessary change. Anyone else think that there is any chance this wont happen anyway?

If you are hell bent on nerfing TE for no reason (unless more blobs is a good reason) then can you at least stop the nerf with T2 and leave the faction/officer TE as they are now? That way those of us who spent 6+ months training T2 projectiles, the support skills, and the skills for the ships that use them can at least buy our way out of your stupidity and continue to use these ships as they should be.

If one thing ever makes me quit eve it will be the god damn cycle of training into some ship/module only to have CCP come nerf it for some half ass reason right after you spend weeks/months skilling for it. Nerfs should only be done as a last resort when a module or ship is so overpowered that it is game breaking and isn't practical to buff other ships/modules to that level. This clearly is not the case with tracking enhancers.

Why is it that you guys seem to love pissing off your player base with nerfs? Nerfs take away from players, and invalidate time spent training skills. If something isn't horribly broken then just leave well enough alone. If something is broken then look at buffing inferior ships/modules first. Everything in the game doesn't need to be equal. Nobody wants to play your vision of bland and generic Eve.

my experience is they are gonna do whatever the hell they want anyway. And I didn't call him stupid, the change is stupid.

If you are hell bent on nerfing TE for no reason (unless more blobs is a good reason) then can you at least stop the nerf with T2 and leave the faction/officer TE as they are now? That way those of us who spent 6+ months training T2 projectiles, the support skills, and the skills for the ships that use them can at least buy our way out of your stupidity and continue to use these ships as they should be.

In my opinion you can take it both ways, calling someone stupid or calling the thing he's suggesting stupid. And in my opinion he meant the latter.

Write your as the possessive form of you, referring to something that a person has, something that belongs to the person in question, or the person you are talking to. "Your" reflects ownership, as in "yours, mine, and ours".

I donGÇÖt know how you fit your slicer but a common fit without TE gives it 22km optimal, and even then it is relatively easy to lure into point range while flying a fast AB frigate. Are you actually arguing that as long as you can project damage outside point range you are okay as a kiter? You do not take into account the room the kiter needs for maneuverability, get pointed and you die. Nerfing TEs will make this room for maneuverability smaller for a lot of ships because you need to move in closer to apply meaningful damage, making something that is already hard harder.

[
As I clearly tried to express the fit is with locus coordinators and not TEs. That was not the point with the post, but you obviously missed it anyway. And yes, hypothetically for a ship that can be caught relatively easy at 22km optimal, a nerf down to 20km would have consequences, wouldnGÇÖt it?

Even if you don't use the financial cost as a basis for the Mach being OP, (as the prices are player generated 'inflated' anyway) the SP requirement of skilling two races should afford some benefit over a Teir 1 or Navy hull.

so PL cries, CCP changes, and the rest of the players can stfu?

nice....

what did it change to your gameplay, i don't know, how it will change mine, i fly gallente / minmatar

So enthrall me with your almighty wisdom as to why shield tanking trumps armor?